Islam: The Untold Story

We've had Jesus mythicism, against which Bart Ehrman has recently stepped up as an unlikely champion — though his public arguments against those of Richard Carrier and Robert M. Price have been unconvincing in my opinion. I've not read Ehrman's new book, but neither have I read the relevant tomes from Carrier and Price (though this is an omission I hope to rectify for all three in due course).

Recently we've also had Muhammad mythicism, disreputably presented on Unbelievable? with mythicist Robert Spencer clashing noisily with Adnan Rashid. And in the past week Channel 4 has shown Tom Holland's TV documentary Islam: The Untold Story.

In contrast to the Unbelievable? altercation, Holland's film was quietly and studiously presented, but reached the alarming conclusion that there was no documentary evidence of Muhammad, neither contemporary nor for the subsequent century. Yet Islam claims to be true on the basis of the Qur'an — allegedly written by the Prophet, to whom the word of Allah was personally revealed. Holland is not a believer, and his approach has a different focus from that of Rageh Omaar's BBC2 documentary The Life of Muhammad (which itself drew some critical comments when I blogged about it).

Holland's documentary is available to view online:
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/islam-the-untold-story
(and incidentally will be re-broadcast on 4seven this coming Monday morning (audio described) at 02:05 BST, or alternatively it's available on YouTube — see below)

The film's controversial conclusion was bound to draw criticism from the faithful, and Holland has responded on the Channel 4 website:
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/islam-the-untold-story/articles/tom-holland-responds-to-the-programmes-critics

He defends his approach in this paragraph:

It is important to stress as we do in the film that this is a historical endeavour and is not a critique of one of the major monotheistic religions. It was commissioned as part of Channel 4's remit to support and stimulate well-informed debate on a wide range of issues, by providing access to information and views from around the world and by challenging established views.

Though this is perfectly valid, and he may not have criticised Islam directly, it's a little naive to expect his critics to agree that their faith has no foundation.

The documentary is currently available on YouTube in its entirety, so judge for yourself:

http://youtu.be/dm8xKh8eQqU

Ehrperson on Unbelievable?

Another Facebook thread repost, this one about Bart Ehrman's recent discussion with Justin Brierley on Unbelievable? regarding "Jesus mythicism".

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  Helen Marple-Horvat

  So...Ehrperson on Unbelievable. Thoughts?

  · · · Monday at 00:06
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    Paul Jenkins Very easy for Ehrman to say Price is wrong when he's not there to back up his statements. I know it was only a small part of the show but Justin lets this happen too often IMHO.
    
    I thought Ehrman skated round Carrier's criticisms without answering them, preferring to moan about the latter's caustic reviewing style. Anyone who's heard Carrier deliver a talk will know that his style is generally mocking and snarky. Complaining that he's "unscholarly" is really evading the issues.

    Monday at 18:36 ·
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    Paul Baird Didn't listen to it. My focus is more on the social impact of Christianity. Aside from the nativity I'm not terribly interested in whether or not Jesus the man existed. The nativity itself is just so wacko and borrows from so many other myths and fables that I do like asking Christians to answer questions about it - to make them think.

    Monday at 18:41 ·
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    Paul Jenkins ‎"The nativity itself is just so wacko and borrows from so many other myths and fables..."
    
    Which was one of the points Ehrman attempts to refute.

    Monday at 18:46 ·
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    Paul Baird I think once someone comes up with a source for the conversations between the Three Wise Men and Herod or The Shepherds and the Angels then I might take notice.

    Monday at 18:48 ·
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    Paul Jenkins But it's in the Bible! (Oops, sorry, already done that bit....)

    Monday at 18:50 ·
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    Paul Baird and what was He doing between birth, age 12 and age 30 ?
    
    The Long Running Ancient Levant version of Big Brother ?

    Monday at 18:51 ·
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    Paul Baird ‎"It's day 5687, Mary has two nominations, Joseph six and Jesus four. Who will be voted out ? You decide !"

    Monday at 18:53 ·
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    Paul Jenkins In the latest (I think) "The Human Bible" Robert Price comments on whether theologians believe the baby Jesus was divinely perfect. I remember reading some commentary about whether the teenage Jesus had "impure thoughts".
    
    Not exactly world-shattering.

    Monday at 18:56 ·
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    Fergus Gallagher Just listening to http://strangefrequenciesradio.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/episode-204-david-fitzgerald-speaks-about-jesus-mythicism/
    
    "David Fitzgerald, author of “Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All,” joined us today to talk about Jesus mythicism. If Jesus was so important and performed so many miracles during his lifetime, why was nothing written about him by those who knew him? Could it be that Jesus was just a myth? "
    
    (It's in the 2nd part, sep. mp3)
    

    
    

    Episode 204 – David Fitzgerald speaks about Jesus mythicism

    strangefrequenciesradio.wordpress.com
    

    Episode #204 – David Fitzgerald Welcome back to Strange Frequencies Radio!  Can ...See more

    Monday at 19:01 · ·
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    Paul Baird I can believe that after reading some of Glenn Peoples guff.
    
    So many Phds in search of so much irrelevance.

    Monday at 19:01 ·
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    Helen Marple-Horvat are you guys all mythicists? Thats crazy if true...I will have to clear off. lol

    Monday at 19:02 ·
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    Paul Baird ‎Helen Marple-Horvat - in terms of the Nativity - yes. Unless you have a source for the two conversations that I mentioned, and maybe some idea of what Jesus was up to for 30 years before he began his ministry.
    
    Basing his divinity on 1/11th of his life does not not appear to be sustainable.

    Monday at 19:05 ·
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    Paul Jenkins Personally I think it's more likely than not a person or persons by the name of Jesus lived around that time and did things that caught people's attention. So I'm not a mythicist. However, I'm highly suspicious of the Gospel accounts, and of the fact that a large portion of the NT was written by one man with a specific agenda.

    Monday at 19:20 ·
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    Fergus Gallagher I put it like this: the central relevant detail about Jesus is whether he rose from the dead ("Jesus-Christ") or not ("Jesus-not-Christ").
    
    I don't think Jesus-Christ existed and who really cares that much about Jesus-not-Christ?

    Monday at 19:24 ·
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    Paul Jenkins ‎Fergus, that's a fair point, but mythicists seem to be saying that Jesus-not-Christ didn't exist either. The existence of Jesus-not-Christ, however, seems to be relevant to whether Jesus-Christ existed (as far as believers are concerned).
    
    I'd probably go as far as saying Jesus was a legendary character, but not an out-and-out myth. I think the stories are probably based on some facts. I don't think the character of Jesus was totally made up. It's been suggested he was a composite, which seems likely to me.

    Monday at 19:33 ·
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    Fergus Gallagher ‎"The existence of Jesus-not-Christ, however, seems to be relevant to whether Jesus-Christ existed (as far as believers are concerned)."
    
    No - they are distinct and incompatible in this formulation.

    Monday at 19:36 ·
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    Fergus Gallagher The other way I like to put it is that I think a Jesus existed in a similar way to the way Robin Hood existed - whatever grains of truth there were have been completely lost to us.

    Monday at 19:37 ·
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    Paul Jenkins So you're an "almost-mythicist"?

    Monday at 19:43 ·
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    Helen Marple-Horvat Lord save me from the stupid! :P

    Monday at 19:44 ·
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    Helen Marple-Horvat Its like the mention of even just the name of Jesus and everyone does a
    
    How high can we pee into the sky contest!! x :)

    Monday at 19:45 ·
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    Helen Marple-Horvat right....dog...off with...seriously

    Monday at 19:46 ·
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    Paul Baird Thanks for sharing Helen Marple-Horvat. I did ask a simple question.

    Monday at 20:13 ·
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    Helen Marple-Horvat There was a question? I thought the thread went into BS land ?

    Monday at 20:57 ·
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    Paul Baird and that is why the nice kids don't like playing with you.

    Monday at 22:14 · · 1
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    Paul Jenkins Myth assist:
    
    http://www.jesusandmo.net/2012/08/22/case/
    

    
    

    Jesus and Mo

    www.jesusandmo.net
    

    Religious satire from holy roomies Jesus & Mohammed in a twice weekly comic strip.

    about an hour ago · ·

The Human Bible — with Robert M. Price

I absolutely love this podcast:

Robert M. Price is a one-off. I first heard him a few years ago interviewed on another podcast about his Bible Geek persona, and have since come across him in various places — notably as one of the hosts of the Point of Inquiry podcast after previous host D. J. Grothe left to preside over the JREF. In April this year Bob Price appeared on Premier Radio's Unbelievable? opposite David Instone-Brewer, who seemed bamboozled by the Bible Geek's vast and confident knowledge.

Some biblical scholars wear their knowledge like a crown, or at least like an expensive suit of clothes requiring careful laundering and only suitable for the poshest occasions. Bob Price wears his erudition like a pair of frayed and faded jeans. He appears to have an instantaneous random access memory of all things biblical, and will throw his nuggets out into the world with nary a care, and often a wry comment. He's not a believer, but maybe this gives his take on scripture an objectivity perhaps lacking in those who so desperately want scripture to be true.

Get your weekly dose of objective scripture here:
http://www.thehumanbible.net/

Subscribe with iTunes here:
http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-human-bible/id506886767
...or with any podcatcher here:
http://thehumanbible.libsyn.com/rss