Tuesday 12 March 2013

Unbelievable? Facebook facepalm (part 2)

...continued from part 1
  • Tom Tozer "as human beings, we all want to survive, & be free of pain & suffering, more than anything in the world. it's WRITTEN in our DNA. but what is written in the scriptures is quite different" Yeah? Maybe God wants human being to be something more than whatever their DNA says. Maybe surviving and being free of pain and suffering are not the greatest good for human beings.
  • Charles Parker Or maybe they are. Who knows?
  • Tom Tozer I guess you have to decide for yourself.
  • Penny Amanda Stone I would say it was all part of His plan. He did say it was gonna happen
  • Charles Parker What, that He'd lose six million jews?
  • Charles Parker Is this going to be one of those mad Biblical prophecy discussions? Can I watch?
  • Penny Amanda Stone Some say He allowed it to usher in the new Israel, some say it was His judgement.
    I personally say God loses nothing. Things are never what they seem. Who can know the mind of God the creator.
  • Charles Parker Apparently, lots of people including many here and you.
  • Maurice D'Abruzzo Penny....can i ask you something? one of god's commandments is "thou shall not kill". i presume this is to protect innocents from losing their lives. given that god is either unwilling or unable to prevent innocents from losing their lives, what is the purpose of this commandment? if the purpose is simply to test our "righteousness", rather than protect the innocent, i wonder why an omnipotent god would choose to create this state of affairs?
  • Charles Parker He might not have meant thou shalt not kill, he might have meant something else. Who can know the mind of God?
  • Paul Jenkins The mystery card! Well played Penny! Can we all go home now?
  • Paul Jenkins Blessed be the producers of all dairy products!
  • Penny Amanda Stone He didn't choose to create this state of affairs did He. He gave us the choice.
  • Paul Jenkins So you say, Penny. Citation? (An unambiguous one, please,)
  • Maurice D'Abruzzo so it's our fault! Penny, you are asking me & all other humans....to take the rap....in lieu of the creator of the universe! i think that is totally unfair. obviously!
  • Penny Amanda Stone No but certain individuals sin controls them, Hitler for instance took murder to the next level. Not all humans wanted that did they.
  • Penny Amanda Stone His greed and whatever it was controlling him created this atrocity but God would of allowed it for His purposes. I don't think 6 million Jewish people went to hell. So God didn't lose them at all. They were just taken from this life that we can see with our eyes.
  • Maurice D'Abruzzo the 6 million jews were murdered, Penny. they were robbed of their lives. one of God's creations - Adolf Hitler - wanted all of them to die in shame. can you see why some people are tempted to do away with the concept of a personal god? why maybe some of us begin to believe...that yes, the universe is a wondrous place... but it's also an amoral place, with no deity calling the shots....& that maybe human concepts of "right" & "wrong" are not big players on the cosmic stage after all....
  • Penny Amanda Stone Yes I totally can. That is I believe because you see things through non spiritual eyes. There is a world that we cannot see. The bible is clear on this. 2 Corinthians 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
  • Maurice D'Abruzzo i may not share your beliefs Penny, but i do respect them. shalom
  • Paul Jenkins It could also be an admonition not to fix our eyes on what is unseen, because it doesn't exist., in the same way that something that never existed is nonexistent eternally.
  • Penny Amanda Stone I have assurance that there is an unseen world. I believe implicitly what Jesus taught. I also know I have His Holy Spirit at work in me. I am sorry it is not yours as of yet, but I pray that it will be.
  • Paul Jenkins Thanks Penny. This is how these conversations go. We ask for substantiation of claims (that, for example, an unseen realm exists), and are told that essentially it must be taken on faith. For some of us this isn't a reliable method of establishing whether or not something is true.
  • Tom Tozer Google is your friend, Paul.
  • Paul Jenkins Google says the same: it's a matter of faith.
  • Paul Jenkins A problem arises when we make unwarranted use of metaphor (such as "seeing through non-spiritual eyes"). Metaphor and simile are both very fine and dandy, and I'm a great fan of them myself, but when metaphors are mistaken for the things they stand in for, or when a simile is used to represent something that it is not at all like, we can end up speaking nonsense about stuff that can't possibly be true.
  • Tom Tozer Or talking nonsense about stuff that is true.
  • Paul Jenkins Well, quite. But how would we know?
  • Penny Amanda Stone I am aware of that Paul Jenkins and I do understand what you are saying. But TBH I knew there was something more to this life, world, what ever you want to call it. Well before I met with Jesus. So I do not get how people can look at a universe they know is ultimately mahoooooooooooosive and not think there is anything else.
    I just knew, I just know, I always have known there is more to life than what we see here.
  • Paul Jenkins _How_ do you know?
  • Penny Amanda Stone I suppose it is the same you way do not know.
  • Penny Amanda Stone Also I think to myself the must be something in all this after life stuff we read about. You hear of people seeing ghosts or talking to the dead etc. There must be something in the God thing (if you like) because for thousands of years people have worshiped God. It can't all be imagination can it. I know my relationship with Jesus is real.

    I thought this anyway. Then when I read the bible things just started to make sense to me. Life makes sense to me now it didn't before.
  • Paul Jenkins "I suppose it is the same you way do not know." I base my belief about the existence of an unseen realm on the evidence available to me, and on the lack of the evidence I would expect to find if it existed. I can't say that I know absolutely that it doesn't exist, but on the balance of probabilities it seems very unlikely to exist.
  • Paul Jenkins You seem to be telling me, Penny, that you have little or no epistemic basis for your belief, but you believe it anyway.
  • Penny Amanda Stone Why unlikely ?

    Not at all, I have very much evidence for what I believe. The evidence I have is doing what the bible says to do and seeking God with all my heart. I found Him.
    We have to do not just read. I sought Him I spent quite time praying and worshiping Him like it says to do. One day He spoke to me in a way I knew it couldn't possibly be me thinking it.
  • Penny Amanda Stone Just because God doesn't appear like a genie in a bottle every time you call doesn't mean He is not doing anything. He works through His people. There are no big bangs and flashing lights.
  • Paul Jenkins You say you have evidence but seem unable to say what it is. If God spoke to you in a way that couldn't have been just you thinking, why couldn't it? Please explain what was different about it that it couldn't have been just you thinking.
  • Tom Tozer Google is your friend
  • Paul Jenkins "You hear of people seeing ghosts or talking to the dead etc. There must be something in the God thing (if you like) because."

    You hear of people being abducted by aliens. Those people are alive today and you can ask them about it. Do you think they were abducted by aliens?
  • Paul Jenkins Hi Google, how ya doin'? Sorry, can't chat now -- bit busy.
  • Penny Amanda Stone I think that there are how the bible describes, demonic activity. They masquerade as different things. There are good and bad angels. Sometimes they do manifest them selves through human flesh.
  • Paul Jenkins Do you have evidence for demonic activity, other than it's mentioned in the Bible?
  • Penny Amanda Stone I have seen demonic activity yes. I also know many people who work in the deliverance ministry.
  • Penny Amanda Stone I believe it is what is responsible for a man coming home and killing his wife and kids, among other disturbing things. You see when we allow sin to reign in our lives. We open ourselves up to demonic attack. It can be oppression or possession.
  • Paul Jenkins Please describe the demonic activity you've witnessed. If you can say how you know it was demonic activity and not something else, that would be a great help to understanding what you mean by it.
  • Paul Jenkins What was the professional assessment if the incident you describe above?
  • Paul Jenkins Was the man clinically depressed, for instance?
  • Penny Amanda Stone We were praying for a women and she started convulsing and foaming at the mouth coughing all this foam up. She said she felt something coming up through her chest.
    They usually go all stiff and start snarling and screaming also.
  • Paul Jenkins Did she believe in demonic possession?
  • Penny Amanda Stone I doubt it, most Christians don't even know about it. It is only if you move in those areas. I was privileged to go on some missions. I have had some excellent teaching over the years all prompted by God. He led me every step of the way.
  • Penny Amanda Stone I saw a lady once who just convulsed and blacked out. I think to this day she is blissfully unaware a demon was cast out of her.
  • Paul Jenkins "I saw a lady once who just convulsed and blacked out. I think to this day she is blissfully unaware a demon was cast out of her."

    What makes you think that's what happened?
  • Paul Jenkins Have you seen Bob Larsen -- "The Real Exorcist" on TV?
  • Penny Amanda Stone Because the lady who prayed for her works in deliverance. I have seen her pray for many people.
  • Penny Amanda Stone No I even think things like that are staged LOL and I have seen it in real life so I can see why people don't believe.
  • Paul Jenkins This is getting circular. What makes you think the lady who prayed for her cast a demon out?
  • Penny Amanda Stone I have seen some filmed, but like you thought it was rubbish and that is coming from one who knows demonic activity is real.
  • Paul Jenkins You haven't yet told me how you know it's real.
  • Penny Amanda Stone The girl she prayed for was my friend she never has fits or anything like that. This is what demonic activity can do sometimes. I have another friend who when she was prayed for she stats screaming really awful screams not regular. They are vile screams. We are talking people who have been very steeped in sin. Prostitutes, drug addicts. They have all been delivered by the power of God.
  • Penny Amanda Stone I have told you you just don;t take in what I am saying Paul Jenkins with respect
  • Penny Amanda Stone I have lived, it and walked it. I know the word of God is true.
  • Paul Jenkins What you've told me so far is either very weak evidence or not evidence at all.

    At the time of their exorcisms, were your friends believers in demonic possession?
  • Tom Tozer No, it's just not the kind of evidence you're willing to consider. It's certainly human experience. You just want everything in a lab.
  • Paul Jenkins I'm willing to consider any evidence in context.
  • Paul Jenkins Anecdotal evidence is evidence.
  • Paul Jenkins And the evidence of "human experience" should be considered in the context of human perception and biases.

    (And of course I have biases of my own.)
  • Tom Tozer Yeah, but you just decide what you believe about human perception and impose your own beliefs about the biases, and come up with the answer you already wanted.
  • Ken Parker //Yeah, but you just decide what you believe about human perception and impose your own beliefs about the biases, and come up with the answer you already wanted.//

    Is this why we have to take every crackpot and lunatic claim seriously? Cool!
  • Ken Parker Amazing. "I scoff at people who claim to have been abducted by aliens but I believe 2,000 year old hearsay that says a man came back to life after being dead for three days and then flew away into the clouds. Oh, and demonic possession. Derp."
  • Penny Amanda Stone Ok so in your opinion what happened to these girls ?
  • Paul Jenkins "Ok so in your opinion what happened to these girls ?"

    I'll answer your question if you answer the one I've already asked you:

    At the time of their exorcisms, were your friends believers in demonic possession?
    2 hours ago · Like

    (This is an ongoing thread, so visit the original post to see if there's more.)