Showing posts with label Paul Baird. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Paul Baird. Show all posts

Saturday, 8 September 2012

Skepticism; atheism — a concentric Venn

Aaron Higashi's comment to Paul Baird's post in the Unbelievable? Facebook group, about the next Qestion.Explore.Discover convention, raises some definitional points about skepticism that I'd like to address. Aaron's comment in full is as follows:
This is somewhat tangential to your post, but it just reminded me about how much I dislike identifiers that frame the opposite side in a way that they would never self-identify as. For example, pro-life. The opposite of pro-life would be anti-life or pro-death. No one would identify as such. Same for pro-choice. I don't think any pro-life people would identify as anti-choice. The identifier has a pretty obvious polemical element to it. It not only identifies a group, but indicts the opposition.

I think "skeptic" is that sort of identifier. Same with "reason rally" or "brights." People do not self-identify as gullible, irrational, or dim. Considering "skeptic" has next to nothing to do with philosophical skepticism in a classical sense, the word exists only in its popular connotation, it frames the opposite group as those who lack critical thinking skills, or who are disinclined to use them. It is not as though one cannot be both religious and "skeptical" in the contemporary sense. Any sufficiently critical attitude would be skeptical in a contemporary sense, and there are entire movements, interpretive frameworks, and denominations based on being critical of this or that other thing.

If it's a science conference, let it be a science conference. If it's a group of "skeptics," i.e. atheists and other non-religious folk, let it be that.

Having said all that, I hope some of the videos from the conference will be on youtube afterwords.
I agree with Aaron's point about the way attitudes are framed, but I don't think there's much that can be done about it. People are always going to spin their own point of view to make it look more reasonable or favourable than the opposition. It's up to skeptics to recognise this and identify it.

As for skepticism itself, I don't agree with Aaron's implied definition — ...a group of "skeptics," i.e. atheists and other non-religious folk... — which seems to be confined to atheism and opposition to religion. It's true that many skeptics are atheists, but atheism and skepticism are not the same thing. You could say that atheism is skepticism about gods — and that's pretty much the stand I take. My atheism is part of, or a subset of, my skepticism.

Skepticism is simply an unwillingness to accept unsubstantiated claims as true. The reason religion features strongly in skeptical discourse is that it has a long history of making unsubstantiated claims, and a reluctance (or inability) to provide substantiation when requested to do so. In addition, religion's standards of evidence seem in many cases to be inadequate. And there appear to be a great many more people who accept religious claims than who accept the existence of Bigfoot, or space aliens on Earth, or the usefulness of alternative medicine — to name but three of the many issues with which skeptics may be concerned.

Some high-profile skeptics will not discuss religion at all, and some of those even say that religion should be kept out of "skepticism" altogether. Personally I don't see how that's possible. If you're skeptical of ghosts, for example, that probably means you're skeptical of the afterlife — which is mostly a religious idea — and if you argue that there's no compelling evidence for an afterlife (near-death experiences notwithstanding) you will be seen as attacking religious belief.

The issue comes back to Stephen Jay Gould's flawed notion of non-overlapping magisteria. The problem is that they not only overlap — in many cases the magisteria are inextricably entwined.

Tuesday, 28 August 2012

Time to refocus?

I've made a number of statements in the past concerning my opinion of theology, describing it variously as "wild speculation", "a cloudy, indistinct field of contemplation that isn't susceptible to rational discussion", "piffle" and "lies, damned lies, and theology". I've expressed my exasperation with certain kinds of believers. I've engaged with believers online, in the knowledge that I'm unlikely to sway their beliefs. I've even critiqued an entire book of apologetics, at length. What has all this achieved?

My initial reasons for engaging were set out some time ago, and were based on two questions:
  1. How come so many people claim to believe patently crazy stuff?
  2. What can we do to mitigate the influence of crazy beliefs on everyday life?
The first is of academic interest, and something that I'd like to resolve at some stage (I have a few ideas), but it doesn't directly impact me or mine (except those of mine who actively subscribe to such views). So there's no pressing need for me to pursue it, other than curiosity.

The second is of paramount importance. Where crazy beliefs inform actions they can have seriously detrimental effect on many aspects of life. Practices and policies derived from unsubstantiated dogma need to be challenged where they conflict with rationally desired outcomes. And though their derivation from dogma may be obvious, substantiation based on evidence is the only acceptable justification.

Pursuing No. 1 above can become tiresome. For example, I've reached my nonsense-tolerance limit as far as presuppositional apologetics is concerned, and I'll no longer engage with it in any but the most cursory way. PA is a minority belief within the broader theistic morass (indeed it appears to be an undesirable bedfellow to much of that morass) so ignoring it will be of little consequence. There are other aspects of the theistic morass that I will still address, but from now on only in the context of real world consequences.

I am resolved to shift my emphasis not just for the sake of my sanity but as a result of concerns surfacing during the past year and coming to a head right now. Any nominally vocal atheist today will be aware of the threatened schism within the "atheist movement" — with one group attempting to rebrand itself as Atheism Plus. How successful this will be remains unclear, but I support the impetus to take atheism beyond the dictionary definition in order to achieve progress in particular areas of concern.

Skepticule co-host Paul Baird, in a post entitled "The Looking Glass War between Theists and Atheists", points out that among all the arguments, debates etc., there isn't actually much difference between those on opposite sides of the divide:
It does seem to me that there is a thin line between atheism and theism and that it's wrong to make any sweeping judgements based on whether one believes in a god compared to whether one does not. There are smart atheists, there are smart theists, there are theists with mental health problems and there are atheists with mental health problems too. It's as though it's the subject that attracts them all. It's like trainspotting with gods. We're all standing at the end of the same platform with our notebooks.
Which makes me wonder what on earth we are doing there. His final paragraph sums up the practical implications of it all, providing some perspective:
I just don't have the level of of enthusiasm to do the debates, exchanges of views or the research to participate in areas outside of the immediate impact of English Social Christianity on English Public Policy as it immediately affects my life and the lives of those close to me.
In a comment to the Facebook syndication of the post, Professor Paul Braterman makes an implicit, practical suggestion:
Some of my best friends are Christians. I long since decided that debating the existence of God is not a fruitful exercise, and that whatever harm may come from such belief should be the subject of criticism in its own right.
An excellent strategy, and one I will endeavour to follow from now on.

Wednesday, 22 August 2012

Ehrperson on Unbelievable?

Another Facebook thread repost, this one about Bart Ehrman's recent discussion with Justin Brierley on Unbelievable? regarding "Jesus mythicism".

  • So...Ehrperson on Unbelievable. Thoughts?
    · · · Monday at 00:06

    • Paul Jenkins Very easy for Ehrman to say Price is wrong when he's not there to back up his statements. I know it was only a small part of the show but Justin lets this happen too often IMHO.

      I thought Ehrman skated round Carrier's criticisms without answering them, preferring to moan about the latter's caustic reviewing style. Anyone who's heard Carrier deliver a talk will know that his style is generally mocking and snarky. Complaining that he's "unscholarly" is really evading the issues.

    • Paul Baird Didn't listen to it. My focus is more on the social impact of Christianity. Aside from the nativity I'm not terribly interested in whether or not Jesus the man existed. The nativity itself is just so wacko and borrows from so many other myths and fables that I do like asking Christians to answer questions about it - to make them think.

    • Paul Jenkins ‎"The nativity itself is just so wacko and borrows from so many other myths and fables..."

      Which was one of the points Ehrman attempts to refute.

    • Paul Baird I think once someone comes up with a source for the conversations between the Three Wise Men and Herod or The Shepherds and the Angels then I might take notice.

    • Paul Jenkins But it's in the Bible! (Oops, sorry, already done that bit....)

    • Paul Baird and what was He doing between birth, age 12 and age 30 ?

      The Long Running Ancient Levant version of Big Brother ?

    • Paul Baird ‎"It's day 5687, Mary has two nominations, Joseph six and Jesus four. Who will be voted out ? You decide !"

    • Paul Jenkins In the latest (I think) "The Human Bible" Robert Price comments on whether theologians believe the baby Jesus was divinely perfect. I remember reading some commentary about whether the teenage Jesus had "impure thoughts".

      Not exactly world-shattering.

    • Fergus Gallagher Just listening to http://strangefrequenciesradio.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/episode-204-david-fitzgerald-speaks-about-jesus-mythicism/

      "David Fitzgerald, author of “Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All,” joined us today to talk about Jesus mythicism. If Jesus was so important and performed so many miracles during his lifetime, why was nothing written about him by those who knew him? Could it be that Jesus was just a myth? "

      (It's in the 2nd part, sep. mp3)


      strangefrequenciesradio.wordpress.com
      Episode #204 – David Fitzgerald Welcome back to Strange Frequencies Radio!  Can ...See more
      Monday at 19:01 · ·

    • Paul Baird I can believe that after reading some of Glenn Peoples guff.

      So many Phds in search of so much irrelevance.

    • Helen Marple-Horvat are you guys all mythicists? Thats crazy if true...I will have to clear off. lol

    • Paul Baird Helen Marple-Horvat - in terms of the Nativity - yes. Unless you have a source for the two conversations that I mentioned, and maybe some idea of what Jesus was up to for 30 years before he began his ministry.

      Basing his divinity on 1/11th of his life does not not appear to be sustainable.

    • Paul Jenkins Personally I think it's more likely than not a person or persons by the name of Jesus lived around that time and did things that caught people's attention. So I'm not a mythicist. However, I'm highly suspicious of the Gospel accounts, and of the fact that a large portion of the NT was written by one man with a specific agenda.

    • Fergus Gallagher I put it like this: the central relevant detail about Jesus is whether he rose from the dead ("Jesus-Christ") or not ("Jesus-not-Christ").

      I don't think Jesus-Christ existed and who really cares that much about Jesus-not-Christ?

    • Paul Jenkins Fergus, that's a fair point, but mythicists seem to be saying that Jesus-not-Christ didn't exist either. The existence of Jesus-not-Christ, however, seems to be relevant to whether Jesus-Christ existed (as far as believers are concerned).

      I'd probably go as far as saying Jesus was a legendary character, but not an out-and-out myth. I think the stories are probably based on some facts. I don't think the character of Jesus was totally made up. It's been suggested he was a composite, which seems likely to me.

    • Fergus Gallagher ‎"The existence of Jesus-not-Christ, however, seems to be relevant to whether Jesus-Christ existed (as far as believers are concerned)."

      No - they are distinct and incompatible in this formulation.

    • Fergus Gallagher The other way I like to put it is that I think a Jesus existed in a similar way to the way Robin Hood existed - whatever grains of truth there were have been completely lost to us.

    • Paul Jenkins So you're an "almost-mythicist"?

    • Helen Marple-Horvat Lord save me from the stupid! :P

    • Helen Marple-Horvat Its like the mention of even just the name of Jesus and everyone does a

      How high can we pee into the sky contest!! x :)

    • Helen Marple-Horvat right....dog...off with...seriously

    • Paul Baird Thanks for sharing Helen Marple-Horvat. I did ask a simple question.

    • Helen Marple-Horvat There was a question? I thought the thread went into BS land ?

    • Paul Baird and that is why the nice kids don't like playing with you.
      Monday at 22:14 · · 1

    • Paul Jenkins Myth assist:

      http://www.jesusandmo.net/2012/08/22/case/


      www.jesusandmo.net
      Religious satire from holy roomies Jesus & Mohammed in a twice weekly comic strip.
      about an hour ago · ·

Thursday, 16 August 2012

An odd definition of "murder"

Via Paul Baird on Facebook, this article about a recent court ruling raises the question of how far the law should restrict personal freedom:

BBC News - Tony Nicklinson loses High Court right-to-die case
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19249680

Paul B posted thus:
A very difficult case, but I cannot agree that this is the right outcome. The question must surely include his own wishes, the possibility of improvement and the quality of his life.

In denying him the right to die have we condemned him to a living death instead ? I think that we have, and we have no right to do so.
...and I added a comment:
It's disgraceful. I can't decide whether the judge was too afraid of making a controversial ruling, or was hiding behind the notion that it would be a "slippery slope" or "thin end of the wedge" to allow a doctor to grant this patient's request.

Those supporting the decision are saying it's not for the court to change the law, and that it's for Parliament to decide if the law should be changed. But unless some controversial court decisions are actually made, Parliament will do nothing.


"For someone else to kill him would amount to murder." I'd be interested to hear the definition of "murder" that fits this particular case.


"The law is well established..." I don't see why a court can't make an exception on the basis of mitigating circumstances, while still making it clear that it is, precisely, an exception.
At the time of writing there are two other comments as well.

Wednesday, 5 October 2011

A presuppositional impasse

In the Skepticule Extra Facebook group, Skepticule co-host Paul Baird posted a link to an episode of the Fundamentally Flawed podcast in which Alex Botten and Jim Gardner took on Eric Hovind and Sye Ten Bruggencate. It was a while before I got around to listening to it (it's over an hour and a half long), but last night I did listen, and while doing so I posted my thoughts and reactions as comments on Paul B's link. Skepticule Extra is a closed Facebook group, so for the benefit(!) of non-members I've pasted my comments below (others' comments omitted, as I didn't see them until I'd finished listening):

Paul Jenkins Listening to this at the moment. Not kicked anything yet.
23 hours ago ·

Paul Jenkins Just got to Sye's complaint about Alex's blog comments. Convenient he exhibits his paranoia at the point his schtick is evidently failing to make any progress.
23 hours ago ·

Paul Jenkins Is Sye attempting to provoke Alex into hanging up on him?
22 hours ago ·

Paul Jenkins Here's my take on a couple of questions: 1. Is it possible for an omnipotent God (if he exists) to reveal something to me such that I can be certain of it? Answer: no, because "possibility" necessarily excludes "certainty" — that is, the question is incoherent. 2. Is it possible that we don't know anything at all? Answer: yes, apart from the knowledge that "thinking" is going on somewhere. But we function in the world nevertheless — amazing, isn't it?
22 hours ago ·

Paul Jenkins ‎3. Is appealing to your senses and reason to justify your senses and reason a viciously circular argument? Answer: no. It's circular but it's not vicious. And appealing to scripture to justify scripture is also circular. 4. Can the laws of logic change? Answer: this question is incoherent because it misunderstands the nature of logic. Logic isn't something over and above the physical universe, it is a characteristic of existence. Without logic there is no existence. Logic is inextricably entwined with existence and causality, and our understanding of it may change with our understanding of reality. Eric's point about the ontology of logic is invalid because his conception of the nature of logic is false.
22 hours ago ·

Paul Jenkins Coming to the end now. And I think Eric is about to ask Alex and Jim to repent (if previous experience is anything to go by).
22 hours ago ·

Paul Jenkins It was Sye who asked this time, coupled with a threat of Hell.
22 hours ago ·

Paul Jenkins Yay! subjective morality!
22 hours ago ·

Paul Jenkins The end.
22 hours ago ·

Paul Jenkins Now I'm going to hold my head under the cold tap.
22 hours ago ·

Paul Jenkins BTW, Jim's description of Sye's refusal to debate scripture with a non-believer as a "cop-out" is spot on. Sye is effectively refusing to debate scripture with anyone who disagrees with him. Maybe that's why he's so fond of the presuppositional approach — anyone who falls for the binary nature of the TAG is easy prey, while those who don't will necessarily stall at the first question because they realise it's a false dichotomy.
22 hours ago ·

    Tuesday, 12 July 2011

    Presuppositional apoplectics

    If you read Paul Baird's blog, Patient and Persistent, you'll know that our recording of Skepticule Extra 009 last night didn't go as planned. About half way through Paul B took a Skype call from Eric Hovind (while letting him know we were recording), and a little further on in the conversation we were joined by Sye Ten Bruggencate. What followed was a demonstration of Presuppositional Apologetics in action, and the main thing I took away from it — regardless of the validity or invalidity of its arguments — is that it clearly doesn't work as an apologetic method. The more I hear of it the less convincing it sounds. In particular Sye's schtick (amply evident in the recorded conversation) doesn't change. Because PA is essentially circular it can't expand and offer anything else, and when you've heard the same unconvincing argument several times it inevitably becomes less convincing each subsequent time you encounter it.

    As far as I'm aware, Christianity isn't overflowing with converts who became believers as a result of hearing this argument, and when the subject was discussed in the Premier Community the most vocal opponents of PA were not atheists but other Christians.
    "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results."
    (attr: Albert Einstein)

    Eric and Sye have agreed to the unedited recording being aired on Skepticule Extra, so listen out for a special episode in the next few days.

    Saturday, 7 May 2011

    God among the blog-battles — an atheist rises to a challenge

    As a result of something Paul Baird mentioned on the latest Skepticule Extra I listened to a discussion between Alex B and Matt Slick, which was precipitated by a challenge from another blogger (of whom more later). Alex B's conversation with Matt Slick was notable for the latter's insistence that Alex is a god-hater, to which Alex understandably responded that he couldn't hate someone whom he doesn't believe exists. There was also the tiresome insistence that Alex B had a belief — a belief that God doesn't exist. This latter point can be argued over at length, but surely its significance here is that Matt Slick clearly thinks that Alex really does believe that God doesn't exist. So how can he be a god-hater?

    Alex seems to be getting a taste for the religious call-in show — he's had another go (which I've yet to hear), but so far his counter-challenge to Stormbringer, the blogger who challenged him to call Matt Slick, has brought forth no fruit. Whether Stormbringer does or does not eventually call the Atheist Experience is of little consequence. Such a call might prove entertaining, but judging by Stormbringer's blog — a few recent posts of which I've perused — the call would probably be short and inconclusive, and would likely highlight the true worth of his arguments and the level of his intellect.

    Monday, 18 April 2011

    A brace of podcasts — Skepticule Extra & Skepticule Record

    Here's the latest instalment of Skepticule Extra, wherein Paul Baird, Paul ("Sinbad") Thompson and I discuss recently mutating DNA, whether a family of hateful fundamentalists really expects to convert anyone, if book-burning should make a difference, and whether a well known Christian apologist and debater is all he's cracked up to be:

    http://www.skepticule.co.uk/2011/04/skepextra-003-20110417.html

    Also available is the first episode of Skepticule Record, which though it's currently on the same RSS feed as Skepticule Extra, will be used to archive the audio of live events. The first is a recording of Dr. Tom Williamson's talk, "The Scientific Method: Uses and Abuses", given at Portsmouth Skeptics in the Pub last Thursday:

    http://www.skepticule.co.uk/2011/04/skeprec-001-20110417.html

    (Despite being recorded in a noisy bar with a football commentary in the background, the talk is listenable. I'm hoping, however, that next time a feed from the PA will be available.)

    Saturday, 19 March 2011

    Presuppositional Apologetics: an argument that's not an argument

    At the beginning of this year I posted about presuppositional apologetics (PA). I first encountered this particular argument for the existence of God after a search for information about the transcendental proof.

    Justin Brierley's Unbelievable? radio programme dealt with presuppositional apologetics in July 2010 with a debate/discussion between presuppositionalist Sye Ten Bruggencate and atheist Paul Baird — a programme that provoked a forum discussion exceeding 1000 posts and confirmed that as an apologetic method PA is a dismal failure.

    Today's Unbelievable? — billed as round two — again featured Sye and Paul, but on this occasion was more about PA rather than just Sye actually doing it (although inevitably it included some of that as well).

    Streaming audio of the show is available here:
    http://www.premierradio.org.uk/listen/ondemand.aspx?mediaid={C2CD1A87-7A50-498E-B5F5-773F4EE37E46}

    Or you can download the mp3 here:
    http://media.premier.org.uk/unbelievable/6edf007c-73a9-47c9-bbbd-c9e9a97a4113.mp3

    Listening to the show, and to Sye doing his schtick, I felt some sympathy for Justin as he sided with Paul in trying to persuade Sye to explain how he gets from the generic God (resulting from Sye's transcendental argument) to the God of Christianity.

    Of course Sye didn't explain any such thing, claiming that the Christian God is not a culmination but a necessary presupposition to his argument. The discussion clearly demonstrated why presuppositional apologetics doesn't work. PA is never going to persuade anyone that it's correct, because it simply presupposes that it's correct. Anyone who accepts Sye's argument as valid isn't being persuaded of the truth of Christianity, they are simply accepting it a priori as true. If the argument requires at its very beginning the existence of the specifically Christian God, it's hardly surprising that it expends no effort in trying to prove something it takes as a given.

    Since his first encounter with Sye, Paul has spent considerable time and effort researching PA, and you can hear his own account of the "rematch" on the first episode of Skepticule Extra, available here:

    http://www.skepticule.co.uk/2011/03/skepextra-001-20110313.html

    The only people who find PA convincing are those who already think it's a good argument. That's why PA is doomed.