- Laurence England She is the new Eve and Jesus Christ is the new Adam. Through Mary's obedience and love for God and through Christ's obedience and love for the Eternal Father, the plan of Salvation for mankind is achieved, death itself is destroyed by the Resurrection and the Holy Spirit is given to the Church to loosen men from their sins, sanctify them and bring them to eternal life.
- Laurence England Well Satan is an angel. You know that. Mary is the one who crushes the head of the serpent both in the past, in the present and in the future. The Devil's end is to be cast into the fiery abyss for all time - eternity. For believers, it is she, the Mother of God, who destroys the power of the Devil in their lives.
- Laurence England She does. Anyway, moving on. Mary helps us to understand what the perfect woman is like. Jesus helps us to understand what the perfect man is like. Both teach us to love God and love our neighbour. Both teach us to obey, out of love, all that God loves. 'What we have lost through disobedience, let us regain through obedience.' The Genesis account of our fall is no good if we do not wish to be raised up.
- Laurence England First, we do not know that they had no concept of sin, nor the concept of death, but I take what you mean. If God said to them 'thou shalt die the death', they must have at least had a 'concept' of it even if they had no real knowledge of it. But, I was not there. Second, it is clear that they know the good, are tempted and choose the bad, thus losing their innocence.
- Paul Jenkins "...it is clear that they know the good, are tempted and choose the bad, thus losing their innocence."
It is clear they had no moral knowledge. They do not know the good, or the bad. They had no knowledge of Good and Evil. What you're suggesting completely negates the need for the Tree of Knowledge. By all means go down that route, but you'll destroy the foundation of Christianity if you do.
- Paul Jenkins Serious consequences like death, which they had never seen because it had never happened, and even if they knew what God wanted, they didn't know that doing what they wanted instead was in any way sinful, because they didn't know what sin was. It's pretty clear cut. They were blameless as newborn children.
- Laurence England Why do you think they had no 'moral knowledge'? God gave them moral knowledge - a lesson - from the beginning setting out what they should do and what they should not do. They disobeyed and they and we paid the price. Their sin is not a sin because they were innocent of Good and Evil before. Their sin was a sin because it was disobedience.
- Johno Pearce Paul - there's a great Reasonable Doubts podcast where they discuss Adam's test. If he is representative of humanity and fails the test then God has designed humanity badly. If he is not representative of humanity, then it is unfair to have selected him for the test. Either way, God's use of Adam is incoherent and unfair. I'll dig it out.
- Laurence England Yes, they did have a concept of 'should and should not'. Listen to the serpent and then Eve: 'Why hath God commanded you, that you SHOULD NOT eat of every tree of paradise? And the woman answered him, saying: Of the fruit of the trees that are in paradise we do eat: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we SHOULD NOT eat; and that we SHOULD NOT touch it, lest perhaps we die'.
- Paul Jenkins So Eve repeats what God told her. Does that means she understands the concepts? Clearly she doesn't understand death, because if she did, she would have heeded God's threat. She may have understood the concept of obedience but she clearly doesn't associate it with anything like a moral imperative. How could she, she has no moral knowledge!
- Laurence England Perhaps, but Conscience is the place where God is to be found. It is here that the great battle between good and evil is taking place in every man and woman. Adam (which means out of the dust of the ground) and Eve (which means 'mother of all the living') stand in a mysterious way for us. When we sin, or when we are living in a sinful way, our natural tendancy, as illustrated by the Genesis account is to hide from God who we fear on account of our sin. God calls out, 'Adam, where are you?' to each of us.
- Paul Jenkins Or his book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Believing-Bullshit-Sucked-Intellectual-Black/dp/1616144114
- Laurence England Before Confession we examine our consciences before confessing them to a Priest. We examine them, also, before receiving His Body and Blood in the Holy Eucharist, which gives us the power to live as the children of God. What we long for, God longs to give us - forgiveness, mercy, grace and peace.
- Paul Jenkins "God is searching for us as a Father. This is what Jesus reveals in His life, death and Resurrection. Jesus establishes in His Church the sacraments which will reconcile us to God."
Stuff like that. It makes little sense to a non-believer (and not much to a believer, I'll wager, other than making them feel significant). Sorry Laurence, if you go off into unsubstantiated word-salad I can't engage, because there's nothing I can address.
Continued in part 3